Managing Eco-Anxiety

The environment around us is changing. Invasive plants and pests affect native species, the climate is different, and major weather events are happening more frequently. Watching these rapid changes can seem create feelings of worry. 

On this episode of Smarty Plants, Host Jennifer Burington joins Angie Gupta from the University of Minnesota Extension office to put a name to those feelings: eco-anxiety, and walks us through important ways to cope.

Smarty Plants is a podcast of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture. Visit www.mda.state.mn.us/plants-insects/smarty-plants for more episodes. Look for a new episode of Smarty Plants every month.

Transcript

Jennifer Burington: 0:19

Hello everyone. I'm Jennifer Burington. Welcome to Smarty Plants, a Minnesota Department of Agriculture podcast, teaching you about invasive species that affect our environment and agricultural resources. The environment is experiencing rapid change, whether it be from invasive species or weather events. Many of us are taking notice of how the environment is changing, and it is making us a bit uneasy. You may not know it, but that uneasy feeling actually has a name eco-anxiety. Angie Gupta from the University of Minnesota Extension Office is here with us today to dive into the topic of eco-anxiety. Angie Gupta is a University of Minnesota extension professor of forestry who specializes in terrestrial invasive species. She's done invasive species, early detection, education and outreach, including participatory science from crowdsourcing to community science since about 2008. Angie's been a key leader of the University of Minnesota Extensions invasive species community of practice since its inception in 2016. And as a key leader in the effort to improve invasive species, common names, Angie co-created the Empower U Course to engage decision makers about invasive species. Angie earned an MA in organizational management from Spring Arbor University and a BS in forestry from the University of Kentucky. Prior to joining Extension, Angie was an industrial forester working with private landowners in Michigan and a US Peace Corps, agroforestry Extensionist in Kenya, east Africa. Angie also works on climate ready woodlands that inspired and now incorporates eco-anxiety education and management. Angie's been with the University of Minnesota extension in Rochester for 21 years. Thanks for joining me, Angie. Thank you so much for having me. So. To talk a little bit, um, about eco-anxiety. We know many of us are experiencing some concern about changes to our environment and climate, especially with like Emerald Dashboard and jumping worms, but can you tell us more about eco-anxiety and what exactly that term means?

Angie Gupta: 2:32

Yeah, so eco-anxiety is a really big deal for a lot of people. About 68% of US adults experience at least a little bit of eco-anxiety. So if you are struggling with these emotions, please know you're not alone, but you asked, what is eco-anxiety? So eco-anxiety is extreme. Worry about the environment or climate because of human caused current or future harm. So it's this, these feelings that come as we experience or worry about our changing environment, and that can be for many different types of reasons.

Jennifer Burington: 3:04

Perfect. And so what are some things that may be causing equal anxiety? I already kind of gave a little hint as to two of them already with emerald ash bore and jumping worms. But what are, what are some other ones and can you kind of describe them?

Angie Gupta: 3:20

Yeah, of course. So. I came to eco-anxiety, not as any realization that these were the feelings that I was having, but rather I was leading a participatory science project related to jumping worms. So an invasive worm, relatively new to Minnesota. And my volunteers were, were very regularly closing their emails with the phrase, I am devastated. And then people were calling me on the phone and they would cry about their invasive, jumpy worms and about not knowing what to do. And, and as an extension forester, I did not know what to do with those emotions. It was, um, it wasn't baffling why they were having them, but I just did not know what to do with them. And it became very clear. That if I wanted to work with these volunteers and really service my participants well, I needed to understand those emotions better. So the first year of that project, which ultimately ended up into three years of trying to better understand how we can, um, mitigate the impact of jumping worms on home landscapes, it was the first year of the pandemic, so was 2020. So the world was already a pretty scary and stressful place. And this was just like one more thing. So the Minnesota Master Naturalist Program ended up having to switch to do everything online, and they put an all call out to educators with an extension, uh, asking if we had capstone class, um, things that people could do to finish off their educational course. And so I pitched the idea of having volunteers help me do a literature review about the emotional impacts of jumping worms. And God bless the master naturalist. A group of them picked that as their capstone project. And so I was able to work with them and they were able to, um, do some literature review work, and we looked for the emotional impacts of invasive species, and there was nothing. Well, first we looked for the emotional impacts of jumping worm, nothing. Then we looked for the emotional impacts of invasive species and nothing. And it wasn't until we upscaled it. Even further that we stumbled in to this field of eco-anxiety. And so once we did that, we were, it really opened our eyes to this whole field of literature. And we realized that indeed that's what these participants were experiencing. So a lot of people, I think, have anxiety about our changing climate, and that is very real as well. But that is not actually what brought me to this, to this work. It was invasive species. And so I think that's just an interesting reminder that, that this anxiety about our changing environment can come from many different places.

Jennifer Burington: 5:51

So. In talking about a little bit more about eco-anxiety and some of the feelings, like what are some of those common feelings that might be coming up for people who are experiencing this? Like eco-anxiety? Like, um, can you describe them?

Angie Gupta: 6:07

Yeah, it's a really great question. And so, uh, the literature is pretty clear that eco-anxiety can evoke many different types of feelings, and I think it's important to recognize that and not pigeonhole yourself into one of them. But they are, um, fear, worry, grief, guilt, anger. Enthusiasm, stress and being overwhelmed. And so then those can kind of manifest into feelings of confusion, shock, trauma, so nostalgia, which I'll define in a moment. Shame helplessness, but also expectation and excitement. So again, really sometimes it can feel awkward to. Be excited about something when you know that it might also be coupled with grief or worry, but that is the state of eco-anxiety. You can have all of these feelings and they can be muddled and mixed together, and that is normal. And then I, I said so nostalgia, so I wanna kind of define that so. That is, um, the feelings evoked by a changed landscape. So common examples that I, I usually reference are if you grew up on a farm and you go back and visit and it's been turned into a parking lot, you're likely to experience this remorse for a place that no longer exists, uh, in invasive species work. I think I see professionals experience this when maybe they had a beloved park. Um, maybe they're even responsible for. And then Emerald Ashmore comes through and kills all of the ash trees and they have to take them down and remove them, and they go back to that same place and it just doesn't have the same feelings. And they have this sense of, um, remorse about this change. And that's, that's so nostalgia.

Jennifer Burington: 7:50

Yeah, there's a lot of ash that were planted after Dutch el disease and that, um, all have been infested by Emerald Dbo and you have these very large ash trees and removing them, it completely changes how that park will feel. I've seen that with parks near my house in the southeast metro and, um. Yeah, it's just a huge difference. Like you have these large mature trees and lots of shade, and then now you are starting these brand new young trees, but eventually they'll get there. Um, so there is hope at the end with that one.

Angie Gupta: 8:24

Yeah. And that, that one, and whether it's from Emerald Ashburg, or. A huge storm, a tornado or a del Rancho, something like that, that I do think it's really important. One of the things I hope everyone takes away from this podcast is to lean into those areas of hope and agency, that there is hope for a future, and that you have the power to make it better. And I think that the, the tree planting like can, if you can envision that what will come after the ash has died. And if you are a, a person that can help inform the species that you get to plant and be a part of the planting, that can really. You can create ritual around that to mourn the loss of the tree that's gone yet still look for that hopeful future. And, and, uh, if you are a homeowner and you get to pick the species, I mean, there's a lot of power in that. So it's one of those things where absolutely sit with the mourning of those trees and then realize the opportunity that's presented by all that sunlight hitting the ground.

Jennifer Burington: 9:19

Nice. So what kind of data is available on the number of people that are experiencing a anxiety? You kind of gave a little bit of some numbers in the beginning here, so can you expand on that?

Angie Gupta: 9:33

I can, and, and just in case people wanna look up any of this stuff, I wanna just make sure that I give a shout out to the University of Minnesota Extension website about anxiety.'cause the statistics and the helpful hints and the emotions are all there. So, Z dot, um. Dot EDU slash ex as in extension, and then Eco Eco slash anxiety, A-N-X-I-E-T-Y. You could probably just Google University of Minnesota extension eco-anxiety too, but you asked about the numbers. So, as I said before, and I think it's important to repeat this, this number, 68% of US adults have experienced at least a little eco-anxiety. That's actually from 2019. I strongly suspect more people have experienced it since then.

Jennifer Burington: 10:20

Yeah,

Angie Gupta: 10:21

so. You're not alone. And that can be really helpful to remember. One of the things that came out of that, uh, jumping worm research was that people felt really like the outlier. That the one person that was worried about the species, they really, um, felt like the crazy person in the room. And just know that isn't the truth. Like most of us are experiencing equal anxiety, some other numbers. So, uh, in a poll from 2020 through the American Psychological Association. 72 partic, 72% of poll participants are very or somewhat motivated to make change. So I think that's important to remember. One of the things that I like to remind people is anxiety is only a problem if it's if. It. Your concern about it is greater than the impact, but anxiety is a really great human emotion to prepare you for the future, right? So if I am going to be interviewed on a podcast and I'm nervous or anxious about that, and as a result that forces me to prepare in advance and have the statistics ready and in front of me, then I'm likely to be a better interviewee. We're likely to have a better. Outcome as a result of my anxiety about that. It's the same with eco-anxiety. So if I am anxious and nervous about the future and that causes me to make meaningful change, then I'm deploying that anxiety well. And so the statistic statistic I just read was 72% of poll participants are very or somewhat motivated to make change. So they're leaning into that anxiety to make meaningful change for a better future outcome for the environment. So that's one. Another one is 47% of the 18 to 34 year olds say that climate stress affects their daily lives. So almost half of our young adults have, uh, their life is negatively impacted by this stress. I think that's important to remember. And then 60% of adults say that they have changed their behavior to reduce their contributions to climate change. So 72% of poll responses were. Motivated to make change and 60% actually reported making change. And so I think there's hope in both of those numbers.

Jennifer Burington: 12:36

Yeah, and those are great numbers, especially for the actually doing the change too afterwards too. The just 70, 60% of the 72 like are actually doing it. So yeah, I mean it's um, and part of like preparing for it is that, um, seeing like something I know in like my yard and stuff like. Um, learning more about jumping worms because I had noticed some of the soil and I said, well, I, I know there's more people that have this, and I know there's information out there. So then you, then you go on the, um, you di deep dive into everything that you can find about jumping worms and then learn about it and then try. There's no way I can get rid of every single one, but I can try to make the best decisions that I can, and I know that's, that's my part that I'm playing in, getting in, helping the situation and dealing with the anxiety that I have about it too. So, yeah.

Angie Gupta: 13:29

So you brought the up, the impact of the emotional impact of jumping rooms. And I just wanna say one of the outcomes of that work that the Master Naturalist volunteers did when we stumbled upon eco-anxiety and we started to incorporate our programs, is that there's actually like a two page resource that you can get online. University of Minnesota extension, jumping worms that is very much targeted to people who have jumping worms and it's. It's the how to manage the emotional toll of jumping worms. And I, I share that example because that's the single piece that people take the extra couple of steps to email me their gratitude about. So they might find all kinds of interesting and useful information in our resource page about jumping worms. That emotional toll piece is the one that people will actually take the additional steps and email me about because it's the thing that has brought them the most. I think comfort, the others are tactical approaches to management, but they're not really addressing their human experience and that does address their human experience, and it's been really comforting to see how much that has mattered.

Jennifer Burington: 14:32

Yeah, it definitely has for a lot of people. So what are, what are some of the environmental factors that are common triggers for eco-anxiety in people We've already mentioned EAB, and, um, jumping worms specifically, kind of like invasive species, but can you give some more examples?

Angie Gupta: 14:52

I sure can. So. Friday it was 72 degrees, so that was Friday, November 14th in Rochester, Minnesota, and it was 72 degrees. Um, I will say I had had a birthday the day before I'd taken Friday off. It was a beautiful day to be outside working on my new bike. But it also, you know, my, my enthusiasm for this wonderful warm weather day was tampered by the fact that it was mid-November and it, it shouldn't have been like that. And so that really. Big swings in our temperature, I think evoke a lot of anxiety, and I will share that I really struggle to both lean into the beauty of the day while also recognizing my feelings of anxiety about that day. And I think it's just that, that tension that we're gonna have to sort out how to live through. Another example of this, which I do think that one thing I like to remind people is. We become more resilient with experience. So another day, like last Friday that was super abnormally warm was back February 20, 22nd, 2024 in Rochester. So February 22nd we had no snow and it was 54 degrees outside. I was like freaking out. Right? Mm-hmm. From my work perspective, I was like, oh my gosh, I do a ton of phonology work. I have people look for things at very specific times. What on earth is gonna happen if everything pops three or four weeks or a month early? I mean, I can't even get my brain around that. And then I, I chose to have lunch outside with my colleagues again. Totally freaky in February. And so I struggled. I struggled with those emotions. I'm not saying this is good, but then January 30th of this past year, 2025, we hit that same temperature of 54 degrees. Mm-hmm. And so three weeks earlier than the craziness that had been 2024. And emotionally I was better prepared to deal with it. Like I've come to realize that I mourn the absence of snow and really cold temperatures, and I hope that we see more of them. I love to cross country ski. I love to snowshoe, but what occurred to me between 24 and 25 was I love to hike. Mm-hmm. And so the hiking season got a lot longer and so like I could really comfortably work on my bike last Friday. When it was brand new and it was exciting, I didn't have to wear gloves. Um, and it was really enjoyable even though I also had to work through some of these eco anxieties. So one of the things that I find most challenging is how to truly love the many more lovely days we're getting because the weird outcome of climate change for Minnesota is it's likely to make us more livable and. Frankly, to have more beautiful days.

Jennifer Burington: 17:35

Yep.

Angie Gupta: 17:36

But I kind of miss the reading because the weather's really bad outside and snuggling on my couch with the cat.

Jennifer Burington: 17:42

Yep. And I've had that with the, with the kids too, that I have some young kids and they've been out biking and I was like. We don't usually continue to like bike just randomly after, um, school. The bus drops 'em off and stuff and they're just still outside playing in the beautiful days, like sweatshirts and maybe some hats and gloves. But yeah, just it's. It's extended that time a lot longer now, but then I also think, well, isn't gonna be an extra snowy or extra cold winter to kind of offset it, but who knows? And that's again, after a few years of having it and it's like, oh, okay, this is kind of becoming normal now and it's lots of fluctuations and that's what's gonna happen. So yeah.

Angie Gupta: 18:26

Yeah, so I think it's just good to remember that for every, every day that you feel really discombobulated, you know, topsy-turvy, recognize the next day that's like that, that's gonna be topsy-turvy for a similar reason. You're actually better prepared to face. Um, and you can maybe lean into the positive and, and lean away from the negative.'cause you're just becoming more resilient as a human in this changing environment.

Jennifer Burington: 18:48

Yes. Perfect. Well, what, um. Specific issues with invasive species are contributing to more. eco-anxiety besides kind of, we've talked a little bit about jumping worms already, but are there others?

Angie Gupta: 19:03

Yeah, and so invasive species are really interesting in that I think we have a couple of emotions that are all wrapped in there. So I've already sort of alluded to, so nostalgia and how it's impact like from Emerald dashboard killing the ash trees. So that's kind of specific. I also think we as humans feel some, um, more specific. Responsibility for that. So many of the people that I was working with around jumping worms head. Likely inadvertently introduced them to the landscape. They didn't mean to, they didn't know. I, I think they should give themselves grace, but that is probably how it came in, in a purchase or in a materials movement. So similarly with many invasive species, it's, it's common that emerald ashburg gets moved in firewood. It's common. That that many of our invasive plants came out of horticulture, things that were beautifully planted in our yard, maybe beloved. And yet it causes these troubles. And so I think we grapple with that in a different way than some of the other things because it can sometimes feel very personal. Um, and so I think we just need to, again, give ourselves grace, recognize that. The information we have is always imperfect. But once I love this quote from Maya Angelou, um, do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. And so you don't need to like wallow in the mistakes of the past. Just make sure you learn from them and then move forward in a better way.

Jennifer Burington: 20:26

Perfect. Yeah, that is a great quote. So what are some steps that people can, um, with eco-anxiety they can take to lessen like the effects?

Angie Gupta: 20:40

Yeah, so there are actually a bunch of things that we know from peer reviewed science that can make us more resilient as humans. And so I've alluded to this and I'll say it again, and all of extension's, natural resource programming at this point really aspires to empower, hope and agency. So anytime you come to one of our workshops, we want you to leave and know that there's something that you can do that will make the world better. And I hope you leave this podcast with that as well. So remember, in all of your interactions. Try to empower that hope and agency. We have the ability to decide how we frame things, decide how we share things, and to whom and win. And so the more we can empower that hope, hope, and agency, the better. Because if people are so overwhelmed and which can happen in this space, then they can't be a part of that valuable solution. I also think it's really important to remember that we are in community. So if, if my talking about my feelings helps you to express yours, then that is a benefit to the community and we are creating a more resilient community, which we need to create a more resilient ecosystem and environment. Then there's some like super simple things, smile. There's a lot of research about how smiles can make someone stay brighter even if you don't know that other person. So I bike commute to and from work, and I make it policy to smile at everyone. I bike by and I'm moving, not super fast, but faster than a walker, and the natural reaction is to smile in response and I love it. It makes my day a little brighter. I imagine it makes their day a little brighter. It costs me nothing, no time, no energy. Um, laughing. There's a lot of great research about the power of laughter and I think it's important to remember you. Infants, they don't have language skills that haven't developed a sense of humor yet they can belly laugh with the best of us. Laughter is a rare, um, human emotion that is fully contagious. So at a conference, if we at this table doing the recording, were to start to laugh. Laugh and laugh hard, we could spread the laughter to the entire room even if no one else knew what was funny. And it turns out there's all kinds of, um, positive feelings that come from just the act of laughter. So, you know, sometimes if I'm having a really overwhelming day or weak or month, um, we have, we have taken to finding a sitcom that makes us laugh. So we can have 22 minutes at the end of the day where we can sort of let the worries of the day recede and just. Giggle a little bit with a sitcom, and that's it. It can help you sleep better at night, kind of get through those rough patches. Uh, that's just one example. There's also like little calendars you can switch over, that kind of thing. When I do presentations now, pretty much without exception, both online and in person, I actually have a, an eco-anxiety break in which I make everyone stand up and box, breathe together. It's a very simple practice where you breathe in. Would you like to do it with me? Sure. We can do it. Okay. So I will narrate once and we'll do it together. I encourage everyone listening to the podcast to do it with us. Um, and then you'll do it once on your own. So breathe in for a count of four. 1, 2, 3, 4. Hold for a count of four. 1, 2, 3, 4. Exhale for a count of four. One two. Three, four. Hold for a count of four. 1, 2, 3, 4. Now I'm gonna have you do it on your, on your own one time. So I encourage you to just reflect on how you feel after that. Very simple, less than one minute exercise. There are some others. So I think it is important that we talk about these emotions. So I was really delighted to be invited for this podcast. Um, we can create rituals. I alluded to this with Emerald Ashmore. So, um, I think Emerald Ashmore is a really great example. The the ash tree is likely to be taken down as a result. So there's many ways in which you can mourn the loss of that. Um, some people will actually sit outside in the space. Other people will take a piece of the wood and keep it. You know, incorporate it into a table or use it as a coaster. These things can be rituals that can help you to remember while honoring that. And then of course, you can create rituals to do the, the replacement of that tree. I alluded to this before, but reframing, right? So if we always think of it as a deficit or a loss and not an opportunity, that's a missed opportunity to frame it about a more hopeful future. It's not to mitigate the loss, but I think it's important to reframe, uh, often to reframe. Um, I said this before a couple times, but resiliency grows in tough times. So I've alluded to being anxious when the weather's super crazy. Um, but any time, like once you have to take down one tree, it turns out you're better prepared to take down another tree. Once you've planted a tree, you're. You're better prepared to plant another tree. Um, once you've converted one part of your garden away from grass to pollinators, you're better prepared to, you know, do something else. Right? So just remember that every time we learn and try, we are, we are growing our skillset, and that's a form of resiliency. I so like to recall, remind people that creating and enjoying art can be really valuable. A lot of people will do art with or in nature or about nature. There's a, a really great quilts who does a lot of, um, work around and changing climate in, in quilting, right? So, um, a lot of different ways. She represents that work, which is just beautiful. And then I'll close with this. Do not forget that being out in nature is good for the mind, body, and soul.

Jennifer Burington: 26:44

Mm-hmm.

Angie Gupta: 26:44

So whether you're hiking, whether you're pulling garlic, mustard, whether you're removing jumping worms, whether you're gardening, whether you're foraging, or whether you're just sitting. Or laying in a hammock reading a book. It is good for the mind, body, and soul to be in nature. So lean into that when you can get your friends and family out there, decide to hike with your, your partner, or your kids or your friends, um, because it is better for everybody.

Jennifer Burington: 27:10

Yeah, we're actually going for a night hike tonight. Yay. So that'll be one of our things that, um, we're taking advantage of the nicest nice kind of weather here. A little bit warmer than usual. So yeah, we have our headlamps and some flashlights and hit the trails a little bit.

Angie Gupta: 27:27

And I, I love that because often this time of year people get kind of overwhelmed by the darkness, right? Yes. And if you can lean into the things you can do, I mean, I, the things you can do outside. Yep. It's awesome. And I've really, we've. My family and I have gone out a couple times to look for the Northern Lights here recently. Yes. And it's been weirdly warm, right? Yeah. So much more comfortable than some other times. But anything you can do to lean in.'cause we have so much dark right now. Yes. That it can feel hard to find that time, but you can still, there's plenty of things to be done outside, safely in nature. Yeah. Even when the sun goes down.

Jennifer Burington: 28:00

Yes. So you talked a little bit about some resources, um, and kind of gave. Um, some examples already, but what other resources are available that may help people, um, kinda cope with a coxie and other changes uh, we are seeing in our environment?

Angie Gupta: 28:21

Yeah, so I'm gonna list a bunch that actually came from that University of Minnesota website. So, um, again, if you google University of Minnesota eco-anxiety, you should be able to find these so you don't have to take notes while you're driving or biking or whatever you're doing while you're listening to this. So I encourage people to lean into the community aspect, um, of trying to make for a better, more hopeful future. And Extension offers many programs that can do that. So I wanna give a shout out to the Minnesota Master Naturalist Program who those volunteers helped to really initiate this work, but that is a vibrant community. Of people that really care about the future. We also have programs like the aquatic invasive species detectors, woodland stewards, master gardeners, forest, pess, force detectors. So these are all people that, um, are learning and working and volunteering to make this future better. As I said before, there's a lot of resources on the extension website, including that handout. Um, there's a handout specific to eco anxieties separate from the one about the emotional tolls of jumping worms. Um, then there are also whole different sort of area about nurturing, resilient. People to steward resilient ecosystem. So there's a webinar about that. There's a separate webinar that links to family friendly Earth Care, if you have like for parents. I think how a family can approach this as a group, those are both webinars. Uh, then extension in Minnesota and in some other states has really leaned into this changing our mental and emotional trajectory. It's called Comet and that is really how we can be better. Um. In our communities. When we see someone that a parent appears to be struggling emotionally, how can we step in? Not as a professional, not as like a psychologist, but just as a, a neighbor that cares. And so that's interesting. It's not specific to eco-anxiety, but there's a lot of healthcare need out there. And this is just one of many. And so if we can be good citizens, I think that can be really helpful that there's also work through extension about stress management for farmers. Um, they. They have lots of things that can cause them stress, some of which are related to eco-anxiety. So I think it's good to remember that. And then I'll just shout out some books. I am a pretty big reader. I'm a huge fan of audio books. Um, I think almost all of these, if not all, are available in audio books as well, but there's How To Love A Forest by Ethan Tapper. That's really great. Super uplifting. Then there's Nature's Best Hope by Doug tme. He is an entomologist out of the Pacific or out of the northeast of the United States, and he's written quite a number of books. But if you're gonna, if you're not familiar with his work, I'd start with Nature's Best Hope then. I really enjoyed accidental ecosystem. Which is a book about essentially the ecosystem and the many critters that live in the built environment with us. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I think we carry a lot of anxiety about the changes we've wrought in our communities and those are real, but it turns out that wildlife is quite adaptable too, and maybe we've been underestimating their adaptability. So that book I found really enjoyable. And then a relatively new book that I was very surprised by was. The light eaters, um, how the unseen world of plant intelligent offers new understanding of life on earth. And I'll just give you a little hint of what I loved about this book was that they talk about, um, interspecies communication. And I alluded to those really or warm days in late winter that were causing me a lot of equal anxiety. What was I gonna do? Phenological my programming. Ah, and it turns out that. That plants actually might be talking, or plants and insects are talking to each other. So there's research that bees can nip the leaf of plants. So they're not eating it, they're just nipping it. And that communicates to the plant that they need to open up their flowers because the, the bee needs the pollen. Oh. And it had never occurred to me that these species were communicating. But you know, it makes some sense, right? If I'm a bee who needs to rely on a plant for my pollen to keep my offspring alive, then maybe I wanna talk to them. Conversely, if I'm a plant who needs the bee to do the pollination so I can perpetuate my own offspring? Maybe I want to be able to be in communication, but it also made me feel like maybe Phonology wasn't as completely topsy-turvy as we I had imagined in that maybe the species are kind of sorting it out amongst themselves and I'm just an observer of that. So anyway, I thought it was super fascinating. So that's a lot, but I think those are some good places to start.

Jennifer Burington: 32:51

Yeah, that's definitely an, an interesting, um, a book that I will look forward to reading. Um, we had, uh, previously in October, we had a person talking about some of the spiders that have like, are pretty much just home dwellers only. Um, some of the species that are, um, have come over. Um, over the years and they just dwell in our houses and the cellar, spiders and things like that. So they do very well in our built ecosystems, um, and help maintain that insect web of life that we'll say.

Angie Gupta: 33:25

No, I think it's a great reminder, right? It turns out that we, uh, we have been a participant in this ecosystem since, you know. We've been here, right? I mean, Minnesota has had people on the ecosystem since the last glaciers retreated. There's never been a time in Minnesota's modern history that we weren't a part of the ecosystem in one way or another. And so I do think it's really fascinating to see, to really think about it, not from my humanistic ecentric perspective, but like what are the other critters doing and the ones that live in our environment with us. Um, and I, you know, I. Every time I go into a bathroom stall and see the spider behind the door, I'm like, well, they're just doing, you know, insect control for me. Right? Yep. I don't have to.

Jennifer Burington: 34:07

Yep. Yeah, he mentioned that too in his, in our last pod, creepy crawly podcast, so, yep. Well, perfect. Um. Thanks again, Angie, for shed some light on these worry worrisome feelings, um, surrounding changes in our environment and with invasive species and providing some coping skills. And I, I hope everyone, um, has some hope and some encouragement in knowing that you're not alone and that, um, we're all in this together and there is. Uh, light at the end there for us. So thank you. Thank you.

Angie Gupta: 34:44

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been really great and I am, I am grateful every time I'm given the opportunity to talk about this because so many people tell me how much it means to them. So I'm able, I'm really glad to be able to sort of open this door for com for conversation within the community.

Jennifer Burington: 34:58

Perfect. Thanks. This has been Smarty Plants, a podcast from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture. Our producer is Brittany Revelle. Our editor is Larry Schumacher, and I have been your host. You can learn more about pests and other invasive species that affect our environment@www.md a state.mn.us. And while you head to our website, we'll be working on the next episode of Smarty Plants. See you there.